Annie P Ruggles is the founder of the Non-Sleazy Sales Academy and the host of the ‘Too Legitimate to Quit’ podcast.  Annie’s mission is to empower more solopreneurs to sell as themselves authentically. 

In this episode, Annie joins me to talk about how you can ask for the sale as an entrepreneur while pushing past your money and sales trauma. 

In this episode, Annie also discusses: 

  • Annie’s entrepreneurship journey 
  • Why people avoid the topic of money and asking for the sale 
  • Sales and money trauma 
  • How to embrace asking for the sale as an entrepreneur 
  • Metrics you should be tracking monthly for your sales 
  • The tone around sales and money when Annie was growing up and how it impacted her as an entrepreneur 
  • Keeping your money mindset strong as an entrepreneur 

Connect with Annie: 

Website |

LinkedIn |

Podcast |

Connect with Danielle:

Website | Kickstart Accounting

Facebook | Kickstart Accounting Inc. – Home | Facebook

Instagram | Kickstart Accounting, Inc. (@kickstartaccounting) • Instagram photos and videos

Twitter | Kickstart Accounting Inc. (@KickstartAcct) / Twitter

Book your FREE Discovery call:

Test your Financial Health:

Learn how to pay yourself as a CEO –

Full Episode Transcript:

Intro  0:00  

Welcome to entrepreneur money stories, the podcast for women entrepreneurs who want to dig into their money stories so they can break free from limiting beliefs around money once and for all. Hosted by Danielle Hayden, owner of kickstart accounting, Inc. This podcast is a series of real conversations about money mindset with valuable and action packed takeaways for the entrepreneur who’s building their abundant empire. Danielle is a reformed corporate CFO who’s on a mission to help real freakin female entrepreneurs understand their numbers and gain the confidence to create sustainable profits. And now here’s your host, Danielle Hayden.

Danielle  0:40  

Welcome to entrepreneur money stories.

Annie  0:44  

Thank you. I’m so excited to be here.

Danielle  0:47  

Yeah, this is a unique topic. So I’m really excited to dive in. I like to start with you. Maybe you can tell the audience a little bit about who you are and what your mission in the world is today.

Annie  1:00  

Yes, I love that today on that question, because it can and will evolve. And then also, you know, some days you have secret missions or new missions. But as of today, you want to be able to coordinate recording as of today. I am Annie Pierre Abilify. I am the founder of the non sleazy sales Academy and my mission and dream today is to empower more solopreneurs to sell themselves not as carbon copies of some shark that they watched on TV.

Danielle  1:33  

That’s beautiful. Now, how did you come into this? Let’s hear about your entrepreneurship journey.

Annie  1:39  

All right, once upon a time, there was the world’s most sales avoidant person and it was me Hello.

Danielle  1:48  

Raise your hands right now.

Annie  1:49  

I mean, you can have the title now I have stepped out of the title of world’s most sales avoidant person. However, you know, the title is up for grabs, if you want it. But I didn’t even realize I had it for me over delivering felt noble, exhausting myself felt noble felt worthwhile. Like if I was stressed and worked out to the nines I, you know, I must have been, I must have been closer to success. If I know, I was always serving, serving, serving. And it worked, kind of, for my first couple years of business, I was a branding and marketing consultant, we built a lot of really pretty things. And I’m not anti-marketing. And I’m not anti-branding. It’s all really, really important. But what I realized is that business is a marathon. And sales is the finish line that starts a whole new race. And if you’re not willing to cross that line, you don’t really have a business. But what I would do is I would carry Carry, carry all of my clients and prospects on my back. I would get them close to their finish line, which was also close to my finish line. And then I would just stop by not asking or not re enrolling, right, I would never take that last step. And I didn’t realize it really, until I was looking at my clients and I was exasperated. I was like, hold on. Everyone around me is a genius with a gigantic heart and so much talent, and so much drive. Why is everyone around me broke? These people should not be broke. They’re doing it. They’re out there. They’re loud, they’re visible. They’re gorgeous. They’re fabulous. What’s up? None of them were asking for any money. And I thought, Well, where are they learning that? Hi, it’s me, the most sales avoidant person on the earth at that time, right. And so I almost as an act of penance was like, I gotta learn how to sell and sell well and sell fast, so that I can save my business and help my clients save theirs because I had accidentally been driving down this road of not asking. And so that was 2019. Here we are in late 2022. And now I am teaching sales exclusively. No more marketing, no more branding, except in the way of sales.

Danielle  4:12  

That’s beautiful. I see a lot of avoidance when we talk about money too. So Oh, yeah. Right. Why do you think that ? Why do you think we avoid, I mean, sales and money are two most important categories when we’re running a business, right? We have to sell and to get money in the business, and then we have to look at the money in and out of our business in order to be able to continue to survive. Why are we avoiding this topic?

Annie  4:37  

You know, I think both are highly stigmatized. I think there are people that think that money if you hit a certain level in your bank account, you wake up the next day and you’re just automatically a greedy butthead. Like, congratulations, you’ve earned the magic number that turns you into a jerk. Right and sales is the methodology of accruing money and they Air for is sales, the mechanics that will eventually convert you into that jerk. We think that it is. And that gets constantly reinforced by the pop culture stigma of sales. And also, honestly, by the personal development industry, which I dearly love and and part of that tells you, you know, everything is a money mindset issue, which then again also tells us, well, money must be a really bad thing, if all these people have all these issues about it. So like, even just the act of talking about it reinforces the fact that we have to fix our relationship with this thing. And so if you don’t have direct money, baggage, or direct selling baggage, or direct money, trauma, or direct sales, trauma, which most of us do from epigenetics, or childhood, or former jobs, or whatever, if you somehow, you know, escaped unscathed from all of that, turn on the TV and watch how people talk about money, and watch how people talk about people that have money, then we look at people with dreams, every single one of your client has a precious baby dream, if they’re growing a business, right, every single one of my clients as a precious baby dress they do, we take these baby bird dreams. And we look at what we see on TV, or what we see in books or whatever it is about how salespeople respond, and we go, I would never do that to my precious little baby bird. And so what do we do we go, I’m just going to display it, and wait and display it. And wait. And meanwhile, your prospects go for people that care less about them, but actually ask them, while you and your baby Burgess sit there and wait to be picked, we can do that. What we can do to compete is sell beautifully. What we can do is say yes, that is a stigma about sales. And that is a stigma about greed, that is not a stigma about money. That is not a great stigma about actually selling for service. Right? It’s not. So we have to choose. I’m not gonna buy into that. I’m gonna take bold, decisive, strong strategic action against that narrative.

Danielle  7:19  

All right, so you said that you brought your clients to the finish line, but then you didn’t ask. Why do you think you didn’t ask? I mean, we talk a little bit about sales of boys. But this is going into the details, right? Because you had them in your circle, right? You’ll have them there. But why do you think you didn’t actually ask?

Annie  7:38  

I thought it would taint the relationship. Okay. I mean, I think also a lot of my initial clients, when I was first starting out, were some version of my friend, or pretty near contact, I wasn’t doing a lot of things like, cold, inbound, brand new fresh off the street leads back then. And so there was a modicum of are you asking any of your friends? Or are you asking me the professional because any friend doesn’t want to charge you but and your professional should? Right? So there was some of that dancing at the beginning, and I just never fixed it. So I carry that idea of like, oh, it’s awkward to ask. No, it’s frickin not y’all if you know how to do it, right. And you know how to do it from a place of permission, and honesty. It really can be a gorgeous thing, but I wouldn’t even try. Because I assumed if I go in and ask him for money, they’re gonna think I’m jerk number 97, their client number 316. I’m gonna forget their name. I’m not gonna deliver what I promised. And then I’m gonna laugh all the way to the bank, and they’re gonna slander my name. Like that was the story I invented in my head. And so for me selling nothing in your head. Oh, yeah. Right. But that was what my version was like, I would rather go bro, than tarnish people’s impression of me. But what I never considered was if I sold to them beautifully, and then served them beyond their wildest imaginings. Their impression of me would only go up if I sold to them beautifully and ethically and they said no. And I responded in a compassionate, loving and generous way, then their impression of me would still go up, or heaven forbid, stay the same. But it wasn’t until I actually went out there and started having the money conversations with people that I noticed my own issues with money and with receiving, and also that we project a lot of our discomfort onto our prospects, which is exactly what I was doing. When I wasn’t asking for the sale. I was going now it’s time for the uncomfortable part. Oh god. Oh, God Daniels probably so uncomfortable. This is awful. Okay. Okay, get out of here. Get out of here. Danielle, thanks so much for your time today, let me know if you ever want to work together because I’m going, she’s freaking out. She’s freaking out. You’re not freaking out. I’m freaking out. Right? And so instead I’d be like, Look, we’re vibing I’m loving this. The solution I propose for you is this? How much? How did that land on you? That one little extra inch would have made years of my life easier. But I was unwilling to do it. Because I was convincing myself that my discomfort was something shared. And unnavigable, right, immovable, can’t get around it, because you can.

Danielle  10:38  

Yes, you can. All right. So how do we start asking, right, what did that process look like for you? And somebody who understands that they might have money trauma, they might have sales trauma? Yeah, they resonate with the fact that they are not asking either, right? What do we start to do about that,

Annie  11:01  

you know, there’s a mindset piece and a strategic piece, just like with money issues, right? Like, if you don’t fix your relationship mentally with money, it’s gonna be harder to change your credit score, but also at the same point, you can’t just meditate your way to better credit, right, we got to do both. And, similarly, in asking, one of the things we got to do from the mindset piece is, look at all the ways you’ve been taught to ask and ask yourself, if they are right for you, because there are many, many, many, many, many ways to ask. And I’m guessing if your relationship with sales is not good, you are either cobbled together asks that you’ve learned indirectly. Or you might still be mirroring and ask for something like corporate, when you are selling somebody else’s widgets by somebody else’s ethics, right? If you’re not asking in a way that feels good to you, then we have to open you up to the possibility of asking in a better and more natural way. If you’re not willing to do that, then we’re not going to get anywhere, right. But once we consider that there are better and more loving ways, and enjoyable ways and fun ways to ask, then we go out and we start looking at those things. And one of the ways to start asking, is to remember that in a selling situation, your number one job is not to talk, your number one job is to listen. And so if you listen, really in a selling situation, if you have been given the gift of someone’s time, spend it listening, then at the end, the task is easy. You prescribe based on their own details. Right. So all along, if they’re telling you the problems, the problems, the problems, the problems, and you’re going oh, yeah, I got Yeah, the ones the needs, the desires, the goals. Yeah, the metrics. Yeah, yeah, we’re totally aligned, then at the end of it, you’ve been quiet, really, mostly, most of the time, you get to go, you know what, thank you for being so open and transparent and honest with me today. I know it’s not easy to talk about this money or selling software or whatever pain point that you solve. And I do think based on what you just told me about specific details, specific details, specific details, and you’re worried about specific detail, that you would be a really good fit for this thing that I’ve been trying to sell you all along. And the cost for that thing is this. And if you pay that together, we can solve this problem, that problem in that problem, which again, goes to this detail, you share this detail you shared in this detail your shared. So that’s the cost and that’s the benefit. What do you think? And then you go back to not talking? Right? So honestly, the best way to start your relationship with asking is to stop your relationship with babbling.

Danielle  13:49  

That’s beautiful. Because how often are we uncomfortable with silence? Right? Right, sitting in silence with another person. And watch what you say I did just the other day. And I’m like, why are you even talking right now? Like nobody can see you that just stopped talking? Why are we uncomfortable with the silence when that person might need the time and space to think they need to think

Annie  14:18  

they need the frickin thing like the way that I always explain this is let’s say you are going on a date to celebrate an occasion and there’s a new restaurant in town and it is hyped to the nines and you are excited. Okay, you took the night off ahead of time. You are dressed up you have somebody you love with you. You are hungry, you have not eaten all day. Because you are so excited about this restaurant. Then you go into the restaurant, you sit down and the waiter comes up and says Hi, would you like to hear about tonight’s specials? Yes, they tell you the specials. Have you ever been here before? No. Okay, well, this is what we’re known for; everything else they answer all of your questions. You Alaska market prices on the fish they tell you, right, then instead of leaving your table, the waiter stays there puts their elbows in between you and goes, Hey, okay, did you see that that comes with cauliflower? Because it does and it’s really good cauliflower. I know, some people don’t like cauliflower, but we can always replace cauliflower or green beans. If you wanted green beans. We also make potatoes. But I think that you said that you’re trying not to do a whole lot of starch right now. But like also, okay, like, we have salmon and I should check with the chef. And I know that like we had at least two more salmon, but we might be out of salmon now. So let me go look okay, hold on. Well, actually, before I do that, have you thought about dessert and you’re like, Whoa, let me read the menu in frickin ‘piece. You’re ruining the rapport and the ambiance of this restaurant. By overdosing. It’s the exact same thing as if you walk into a Best Buy. And 87 people in blue polos are like, I’ll be fine. You’re like, No, I’m fine. I just want to go look at DVDs, leave me alone. Oh, god, oh, God, oh, God, we feel cornered at the point of decision. They need space. They need expansiveness, they need to be able to see possibilities. And also do things like math in their head. How are they possibly gonna do any of that? If you’re standing over there going? It’s 1995. And I know that that’s competitive. I know that it kind of isn’t, you know, and, and, you know, I just recently raised my rates. And I haven’t really published again, either. If that’s too expensive. We could go back to the 2021 rates without telling anybody. But also like, we could do payment plans or whatever. You know what, you know what? You don’t even need me. So like, thanks so much for your time, and just get back to me in the future. If you want to work together by week. Yeah. I’ve done it. And I’ve heard it more times than I can count. So again, to change your relationship with asking, ask as a fact, the price is this benefit is this. I think it’s right for you. Because this and then shut up. Do what you got to do. By your cheek go on mute. Right, turn your camera off for a second. I liked

Danielle  17:08  

the cow. Cow. And it gives me space. Like, are they waiting for me to talk right? So it’s like, they might not feel like they’re like, Why is she not talking? So I like to count. Right. So. So usually mine is 10 to 15 seconds. Yeah. So in anything, right? So I am giving them time and space, but they’re looking for me to lead the conversation. A cow. And then I’m relieved.

Annie  17:32  

Yeah, I mean, I have Girl from Ipanema in my head, like old school music. Maybe if I’m really feeling it that day, I’ll look for micro expressions or things to think back on and watch just for the inside. But at that point, whether or not they say yes, or no, or maybe they might not even be ready to answer on the call. They may say, hey, I need more time. And that’s as far as the answer is gonna get if I’m sitting here going, oh, oh, God, they can’t even get there. So I’m like Talan, tan and young and love Leila girl from you burn even goes back. Oh, yeah, we could do a payment plan. And when she passes each one’s you pass this goes like, seriously?

Danielle  18:16  

Is there anything else that you can leave the audience with? On how to embrace the ask? Yeah. Anything else you can think of

Annie  18:28  

fall in love with the problems that you solve? And understand that sales is The Art of Problem Solving for money. Right, and, and so if you’re in love with the problems that you solve, and you understand deeply why those problems need solving from both an emotional and a logistical standpoint, then you’re falling in love with the art of receiving money for solving those problems, right. And every day, before you sell. We think it’s so easy. It’s so easy to summon up a list of 9000 examples of people that hurt you through selling right, they lied, they cheated. They twisted, they tripwire, they gimmick to a million things. It’s really easy to summon those up. But most of the time, when I ask people, their great sales modeling examples, they cannot summon that up nearly as easily, if at all. So before you go to sell every time, I want you to think of someone that you love to pay. Oh, why do you love to pay them? How do you love to pay them? If they raise their rates? How would you feel? If you couldn’t afford them? What would you do? In most aspects, you’d be like, damn, I’d save up because they’re worth it. Or wow, maybe I’d feel a little bit weird if I couldn’t afford them but I’d want them to give me some extra or you know, I want them to work with me or you know, they’re so amazing at what they do you It’s an honor to show up and partake in that you are too, you too can be and should be someone people love to pay. But if you don’t acknowledge that in your day to day waking life, and you’re just cataloging all the times you were swindled, your relationship with sales isn’t going to get better. And asking isn’t going to get easier?

Danielle  20:21  

Alright, so I can hear resistance in my head, maybe my sales aren’t perfect. But I’m in business, right? I’m signing clients, right? So I’m scared to change, right? So I hear you, I hear I hear the strategy. But I’m scared, I’m going to lose process prospects by changing my strategies, what metrics, what things can we keep track of, as we experiment with change, so that we can see if it’s working or not working?

Annie  20:53  

If you don’t have a touch point where you’re actually asking someone to sit down with you on what you would call a sales call, or a discovery call, and you are charging something mid to high ticket, I would definitely incorporate giving yourself that time. And then you can track all the metrics they’re in: number of people invited to calls versus number of people that book calls, number of people that book calls versus number of people that show up to the calls, number of offers made on the calls, right? I don’t make offers to all people. Not everybody is right for me, traditional sales tallying. I would say that is a no, that is a sale loss. I think that’s ridiculous. If you show up and you don’t have any money, or if you show up, and you tell me, You’re about to go on a three month cruise, and you want to work with me in December, I can’t count that as a failure on my part. And especially if someone shows up a red flag, red flag, red flag to money, or some money is too expensive to take, right? And so at that point, if I’m like, Oh my God, this person will be a nightmare. Traditional sales coaching would say I either take them and convert them and count them as a win. Or I count them as a loss, why? They were never my client to begin with. Right? But then also, if I look at that mismatch column between business one and business lost, and those numbers going up, up, up, up, up, up, up, that shows me my marketing is not correct. That shows me I’m not bringing in the right kind of leads. Right? So people say no to people that give you the long maybe. And then the other thing is that it’s so critically important to understand, when you’re looking at metrics, what is your average buy cycle time. A lot of people expect that the way it’s supposed to be is someone gets on a discovery call or a sample call with you. And they leave as a client, they pay that day they’re raring to go that 30 minutes with everything they need. For a lot of us, that could not be further than the truth, my buy time is between six to eight months. For most people, they hang out in my world for six to eight months. And I have to lie. That’s a good reminder, I have tried myriad ways to truncate that time, to some success to some not success. But still no matter what people hang out in my world, on average, for six to eight months from the point of entry into my world to the point where they give me money for the first time, if I were looking at that as a rate of quick close, my close rate would be close to zero. But if I look at it as my close rate in those six to eight months, it’s more like 40-50%.

Danielle  23:51  

So I’m seeing that, you know, in a mathematical quantitative world, what we would do is track your number of total calls, maybe for the last 12 months, taking out anybody who was not a good fit, right? And then how many sales were one, but looking at it over the last 12 months. So you’re looking at it, looking at it monthly, but also in its entirety over the last 12 to 24 months, so that you’re capturing those who come back into your circle.

Annie  24:23  

And all throughout the metric that you’re tracking month to month, day to day is how many handheld offers did I make to prime prospects? Right? Not how many wishy washy social media offers did I make to my entire network? Okay, how many handhelds? I want to work with you offers, have you made this week? And then do more next week, and then do more next week? And sometimes you can’t. Sometimes you’re like I had an open house last week and I made 12 offers and this week I’m on podcasted it doesn’t feel right to make any offers. It’s an ebb and flow, right? But you get into this habit where it sort of becomes an itch on the roof of your mouth where you’re like I haven’t made an offer in a while. And so you can look at it in the granular while you’re waiting to see your six to eight month turnover your year over year and number of calls and calls out. Have I made any offers this week? Have I asked people this week? Have I sat down and had one on ones with people this week? Have I asked for referrals this week? Have I asked for testimonials this week? Those are the metrics I want you tracking?

Danielle  25:36  

Hey, podcast lovers, I hope you’re enjoying another amazing episode of entrepreneur money stories. I had to interrupt to tell you about an exciting new tool we recently launched. If you’ve been wanting to learn how to start managing your business finances, but don’t know where to start, then visit kickstart accounting To receive our new five day video bootcamp series, you’ll receive a video each day that will take you from accounting overwhelm to money powerhouse. So you’re ready to kickstart accounting Alright, that’s the episode. Is there anything else that you can think of when you’re working with your clients that you encourage them to keep track of or to keep in mind as they’re experimenting with change?

Annie  26:22  

Something I learned from you, your numbers are probably not as bad as you think. And you can’t grow what you don’t know. Right. And so part of it when I was a sales avoidant, I was so embarrassed by how little money I was making. I just was never looking at ap & l Never looking at my balance sheet, never looking at anything, because I assumed it would just be horrific. Ly atrocious. I got in there, my credit sucked. So I’ve got some business debt that needs fixing. But the account itself wasn’t that bad. My credit card debt was scary, but not atrocious. And I was able to do some like consolidation loan stuff on the back end and save myself some interest. I wasn’t able to do any of that when I was just letting things go on autopilot. So this is your world, not mine. But something I heard you say on my show when these mics were reversed, is if you’re not looking at your numbers, you’re pouring gasoline on a problem that might not even be there.

Danielle  27:21  

Yeah, that’s beautiful, because it’s not always right, the p&l and balance sheet. They’re important. They’re important. But I specifically wanted to talk about these metrics, because there are other metrics that can help us understand the other pieces of our business. And so when we’re trying to improve our sales strategies, we still have to tune into the numbers, right, we still have to see are the changes that are making working. And we can’t just say just because of beautiful clothes, or digital process, we have to give things time and patience.

Annie  27:54  

It also keeps us from doing what I did so many times, which is like get a little bit of money, spend it all get a little bit of money, spend it all get a little bit of money over invest over invest pays for something I can’t afford that right, like assume that the money’s gonna come. And if I had been paying closer attention to my numbers, I would have realized that I couldn’t afford things that I thought that I could. So I actually caused myself challenges by overblowing my business when I could have stayed more lean. And if I had been looking at my numbers, I would have known that, but I wasn’t. I was just seeing the money come in and going, Oh, I’m profitable. Let’s spend that, let’s go reinvest. reinvest good. reinvest to the level I did badly, because it wasn’t based on any metrics.

Danielle  28:41  

Yeah, reinvest can be a cop out like word, right. I’m gonna reinvest this. Well, are you are you just spending money there you like to spend?

Annie  28:51  

Exactly, exactly, because there really is a difference. You know, like me buying every piece of software on AppSumo. It’s not reinvesting.

Danielle  28:59  

Exactly. Well, you mentioned avoidance a lot. And you’ve mentioned trauma a few times. So I always like to torture guests and make them go back in and explore old wounds make you talk about your trauma, maybe your childhood. So let’s rewind a little bit, what was the tone around money and maybe even around sales as you were growing up that might have caused some of these avoidance issues later on? Ah,

Annie  29:33  

so I’m the kid of two entrepreneurs, which is really interesting, because for me, I didn’t grow up not knowing entrepreneurship was possible, like a lot of people, but because I had a front row seat to it, and because that front row seat where my parents, I would assume that all stress was work stress because I was a kid, and I saw my parents be successful. But my mom who was the Speaker was all on a plane at like four o’clock in the morning to Topeka in a blizzard to talk to, you know, the cattle ranchers association of the greater plains, right, like not anything she was necessarily passionate about. But that was the job. And if she was sick, she was on a plane. And if she was tired, she was on a plane, and then she’d come home and be exhausted. And so I think what I learned is that money is possible, but the pathway to money is exhaustion. Right? So like success as possible, entrepreneurial success as possible, but an indicator of whether or not you’re going to be successful or where that tipping point is, is how exhausted you are. And so I don’t think it occurred to me until recently, and I’m still unpacking this to be honest, that I can earn in a calm way that I can earn in a mentally healthy way. And that the only path to profit for me is not just through hardcore stress, Beast hustling, which I’ve done for many, many, many years. So I am still actively at the point of recording, breaking up with a hustle mentality. And it’s hard, because I do think I watched my parents struggle, and they were trying to show me the value of hard work. And they did. But I think along the way, I got the idea that hard work has to be painful in order to be profitable.

Danielle  31:22  

Now, when they were in this time, time period, what did they talk to you about money? Was there abundance around you? Or was there scarcity? Was there any tone around that?

Annie  31:34  

I think it was feast and famine, right? In that way, there were times when the family was doing really well. And we take big vacations and we do fun stuff, or like I went to private school, my parents paid for my college, right? All of that is very abundant. And then also at the same point, there would be like, Oh, we got to tighten it up. We got to do whatever. And I’m like, Oh, I realized now that that’s because if my mom was waiting on a deposit, there’s all of our liquid assets waiting in a mailbox somewhere. Right? And so it was like, we’re okay, we’re not okay, we’re okay. We’re great. We’re about it. Okay, we’re not okay. Right. And so I think that’s another thing that I sort of learned is like waiting for the other shoe to drop. And it never did on my parents. And yet, I’m still waiting for it to drop on me. Like it’s some kind of generational birthright like, yeah,

Danielle  32:20  

Now, you said to entrepreneurs, you Was your father, an entrepreneur as well.

Annie  32:26  

Yeah, he’s a business strategist. So he was an aerospace engineer who left that early to consult. And he especially did stuff with Thought Leadership where he would help people build their platform on either speaks, speaks speeches or books. Yeah, interesting. But then also, my mom will be the first one to tell you because we were all working in her business in one way or another. My mom used to say stuff all the time. And even now, she won’t listen to my podcasts, because marketing stresses her out. She’s retired now. So that’s her prerogative, right. But she would say in the back, well, I don’t sell, I don’t mark it. And so I grew up going well, I don’t sell it. I don’t mark it. Hell, yes, I do. I mark it every day, whether or not I want to, I show up every day, and therefore I mark it. Right.

Danielle  33:16  

There’s a story right there, right? That her avoidance became your avoidance? How does she react now that you’ve kind of embraced this role? What is she? 

Annie  33:28  

Oh, she thinks it’s hilarious. She’s like, when was this when you were 14? I couldn’t use this. And I was like, well, social media wasn’t really a thing yet. So unless you wanted to sell your business on AOL Instant Messenger, none of this would really have applied, right. But that’s kind of her response. Like, we could have been richer if you had done this stuff when you were a kid. And I was like, what, what, but like, that’s kind of the official response is like, oh, and I mean, they’re, they’re huge supporters, and they want an easier road for me than they had. But I think honestly, it’ll be interesting when they hear this episode, because they listen to my episodes on other people’s stuff. They just don’t listen to my show. What my dad does, but whatever. But you know, it’ll be interesting, because I don’t think they hear me talk about what I learned from them in the negative, often. And I’m curious to see how they’ll own that. But they certainly are thrilled that I have sort of ended the family curse of sales avoidance.

Danielle  34:36  

Russia. Alright. You also report back on what they think I will. I think it’s important for us though, you’re there’s a lot of shame around not being able to embrace money or sales. And I always want to give people permission to experiment and to look back and explore why, right? Because we weren’t just born, not salespeople. We weren’t born that creative. I mean, we might lead more to the right or to the left and one side of our brain than the other. However, these are stories that have been told to us, these are experiences that we’ve had. So I appreciate you sharing that story. As you grew up, right? And as you kept on saying to yourself, I don’t do sales, right? What other areas did that impact your life as you came into entrepreneurship?

Annie  35:31  

Oh, man, I mean, I’m sure it didn’t help my dating life. I’m married now. But you know, if I see asking as a form of self advocacy, and I see it sort of similar to dating, where if I wanted a second date, I would wait for the person to ask me, you know what I mean? And I’d be like, I had a great time, sitting and smiling at them. Now, if I were dating again, which heaven forbid, I never, ever want to again. But you know, if my poor beloved husband got hit by a bus or something, and I had to go back into the dating pool, I would hope that all of this would have me say, You know what, I had an awesome time. And I’m not going to wait for you to ask me out. I’m going to ask you out again. We had a great time, do you want to do this again, and then either field the initial No, now that I’m better at rejection, nurse the feelings of that, or book The next day, right then and there, you know, but it’s, I don’t think I went after, I don’t think I went after opportunities as aggressively or ardently as I could have. I certainly played small in relationships of all kinds. I told myself that I was unable to, you know, perform in this way. And so I didn’t take myself seriously as a business really, underneath at all, because I knew that at the end of the day, I wasn’t going to make a bunch of money, and I wasn’t going to really, you know, I was gonna have to over deliver for every inch I made. And, you know, it’s hard to show up and feel like I’m not an impostor syndrome thing. It’s hard to be like, Hey, let me help you literally grow your business when my business was in default. Yeah, it makes you feel worse than an impostor, it makes you feel like a hypocrite. So I would have really loved to spare myself those lean, icky years, and who knows where I’d be. But now all I can do is I can go, everyone I’ve asked, still what we talked about at the very beginning, either after the ask, they have the same opinion of me or butter. And I have to remind myself continually that as I go out and do what I love to do, which is build relationships, deepen those relationships, spoil people with love, and generosity. But as I do that, I have to remember that I’m not going to taint or cheapen anything. I’m opening a gateway to more, I’m opening a gateway to the service. And if I had seen that before, the sky would have been the limit. But I’m excited for the trajectory I’m on now, now that I finally caught up

Danielle  38:14  

As a business owner, how do you keep your money mindset strong? Like, are there any specific practices that you have in your repertoire that you can share with the audience?

Annie  38:27  

You know, I recently took a certification called the trauma of money, which is based in Canada, and I really, really loved it and one of the things that I never really understood was the relationship between money and the nervous system. And that when money makes you uncomfortable, there are physical discomfort parts of that, because parts of your brain are getting agitated by past trauma, right? And so what did I learn to do? Good old box breathing, right, like, sit there and treat it. Like if I’m having an anxiety attack, I would know what to do. I would breathe, I would sip water, I would slow down, I would remove myself from stimulation. I didn’t see my adverse reactions to money as a similar thing. I saw it as me being a baby. So I try to muscle through it. And now when I get scared when I have an open house, and I’m like, Look, this is all my money for the month. And if I don’t close right now, then things are going to be lean for a while. What do I do with that I sit, I breathe. I get my nervous system back to a place where I can actually make decisions and I’m not just running around like a chicken with my head cut off and stress Landia right. And then from there I go, okay. Now what? I know the numbers. I know my goal. I know why I didn’t hit it. Or I know I’m about to make a big ask. I know that’s going to be scary. What’s actually going on here and I literally just have to breathe into it. I know that that seems real. They are simplistic but it wasn’t until I realized the trigger effect that some money, thoughts and conversations have in me that I went, Oh, girl, push, pause, slow down and breathe. Because so many times, my brain is trying to convince me against the money or against the asker against the sale as a form of self protection. That is counterproductive to what I want. And I cannot see that when I’m actively running for my life.

Danielle  40:35  

Yeah, the brain does some crazy stuff, I would love to have a scientist on the show one day to dive into the fact that our brain is always trying to protect us. And you make a really good point there. That’s a beautiful way to end the show. Is there anything else that I didn’t ask you today that you wish I would have? Or you’d like to leave the audience with?

Annie  40:58  

None of the terrible ways that you’ve been sold to our required behavior. But asking is, so if nothing else, start experimenting with ways to ask joyfully, ways to ask gratefully and ways to ask authentically as yourself. Don’t ask like me. Don’t ask like Danielle, don’t ask like Grant Cardone, ask like you. I encourage you to joyfully find out what that means. So that you can get yourself in the position you need to get into to really serve and live your why you’re not going to be able to live your wife for very long if you’re not also willing to receive

Danielle  41:41  

Awesome. Where can the audience find you and stay connected?

Annie  41:45  

If you are a podcast player, right this minute, you should go over to too legitimate to quit and find an episode with Danielle Hayden where we talk about Yellowstone and financial confidence. So that’s why it was so fun. So that’s if you’re in a podcast player right now. Just hop on over to legitimate to quit, or you can find it at two If you are an active sales avoidance though, and you’re really freaked out, do not go to my website, annie p Don’t even do it. What I want you to do instead is I want you to send me a DM on LinkedIn where you just search for my name, or Instagram or I met any printer. Tell me what you’re up against. I’ll do some flash coaching at the moment, and we’ll get you ready for that next conversation.

Danielle  42:30  

Awesome. Thank you so much.

Annie  42:32  

The pleasure has been all mine

Transcribed by